William Brangham: But first, let's move on to the world of audio.
An estimated 500 million people will listen to podcasts this year.
This is the most in the medium's short history.
Since the term podcast itself was coined 20 years ago, the format has grown into a $25 billion industry.
Spotify has revealed that Joe Rogan's best-performing podcast has over 14 million subscribers.
That's almost three times as many as the next most popular show.
But the industry's growth has also come with significant pain.
Jeffrey Brown reports for the arts and culture series Canvas.
Jeffrey Brown: It was an industry festival, an annual on-air fest, a showcase and gathering of the world of podcasting, and of course it was held in a swanky hotel in Brooklyn.
The first session commemorated the 10th anniversary of Sarah Koenig and Julie Snyder's “Serial,” the podcast that changed everything.
How many people downloaded the first season?
do you know?
Woman: Oh, probably over 200 million.
Jeffrey Brown: In fact, “Serial” has been downloaded over 300 million times to date.
And it propelled the medium into the cultural mainstream.
Now, On Air Fest is the starting point for new programming.
Woman: You're about to hear her new limited series for the first time.
Jeffrey Brown: It's a place where industry heavyweights like Malcolm Gladwell hang out, as well as big names from other fields like Grammy-winning singer-songwriter Norah Jones.
why are you here?
Norah Jones, Musician: I think it's because of podcasts.
Aren't we all like that?
Jeffrey Brown: On a super popular talk show like Joe Rogan's provocative interview podcast, it certainly sounds that way.
Elon Musk, Owner, X: I mean, it's legal, right?
JOE ROGAN, “THE JOE ROGAN EXPERIENCE'' HOST: Totally legal.
Elon Musk: Okay. Jeffrey Brown: True crime.
Woman: And then she stepped into a trail of blood she never expected.
Jeffrey Brown: Music, art, and even cooking shows.
Man: Unless it's pastry, cooking is philosophy.
Next, the chemistry.
Jeffrey Brown: All for all.
But if you lean in and listen, you'll find that another story is still unfolding: a story of two worlds.
On Air Fest founder Scott Newman brought them together here in Brooklyn.
Scott Newman, Founder, On Air Fest: Your industry is an opportunistic commercial industry centered around an art form.
So anyone with a commercial interest is trying to play games on this.
Laura Mayer, ABC News: I first started my podcast in 2008 when I was still in college.
JEFFREY BROWN: Laura Meyer currently serves as executive producer of audio at ABC News and hosts her own podcast, Shameless Takeover Targets. This program is about her own experiences within an industry where major media companies have gained attention and become major companies.
Laura Mayer: In 2019, there was a shooting that went over the bow of the ship.
Jeffrey Brown: That's when streaming giant Spotify acquired industry-leading production company Gimlet Media for a huge sum.
Laura Mayer: The amount was over $200 million.
And I remember thinking, “Oh no.”
Jeffrey Brown: So the world has changed.
Laura Mayer: The world has changed.
JEFFREY BROWN: And a lot of money came in.
Laura Mayer: Yes.
But these large companies that intended to scale up found themselves not getting a return on investment.
And I think in the past, we've had, you know, a little bit of a year of, you know, massive, massive layoffs.
Jeffrey Brown: The headlines were grim.
KELLI HURLEY, VP and Head of Revenue Partnerships, SiriusXM: I think we got a little too excited.
And many wanted to get into this medium early.
Jeffrey Brown: Because they just felt like they had to be there.
Kelly Hurley: Of course.
And I think it was a bit of an arms race.
Jeffrey Brown: Kelly Hurley, Vice President
And the head of revenue partnerships at SiriusXM, one of the big players to come in, says Sirius remains serious about podcasting, but: Kelly Hurley: We're being more strict about the deals that we bring. I think it is.
Jeffrey Brown: By rigorous, do you mean looking at what makes money?
Kelly Hurley: Of course.
Jeffrey Brown: As part of that rigor, the company has laid off hundreds of employees over the past two years, including in its podcasting department, including longtime audio producer John Delore.
Like many people from the public radio tradition, Delois had high hopes that the investment by Sirius and others would bring creative freedom, time and resources.
JOHN DELORE, Co-Founder, Audio Flux: In the end, even though we had a strategy, there was just a disconnect between what kind of audio we actually wanted to create in that space.
As you know, Howard Stern is the mainstay of this company.
So the things we make take a lot of time.
Jeffrey Brown: After being fired, Delore co-founded a small independent company called Audio Flux with producer Julie Shapiro.
JULIE SHAPIRO, Audio Flux Co-Founder: Audio Flux is the new home for independent audio and new voices, and the engine of the audio community and podcasting's big ideas.
Jeffrey Brown: What does that mean?
Julie Shapiro: It means that the world of podcasting has become so big that the money is moving and the imagination has left the building.
And what we're saying is that there's space to think through these things, to feel the work, to play with the medium, to try something new.
John Delore: And I think there's an audience that likes the kind of experimental, craft-driven stuff that we believe in and that we value.
You just need to give them something new that they want to hear.
JEFFREY BROWN: Laura Meyer said that these niche audiences do exist and are valuable.
Laura Mayer: The audience is probably more segmented by podcast.
But those audiences are loyal.
JEFFREY BROWN: Is it true that even though the audience continues to grow, it's still a very difficult business model?
Laura Mayer: The audience will continue to grow, but I think the business model is right sized right now.
The focus on scale in terms of creating one show that everyone listens to may not.
JEFFREY BROWN: Tonya Mosley, co-host of NPR's “Fresh Air,” is speaking to one audience in particular on her new podcast, “She Has a Name,” here. Masu.
TONYA MOSLEY, “Fresh Air” Co-Host: This is more than just solving cold cases.
This is the story of a family seeking healing and a city fighting to survive.
Tonya Mosley: I'm speaking specifically to inner-city black and brown people who understand this story.
And others can follow and even participate in this if they wish.
Now, where are they?
Where can you get their attention?
Jeffrey Brown: In that sense, are you reaching a new audience?
Tonya Mosley: I hope so.
That means there are no templates or blueprints at this time.
So we need to try new things, and we also need to challenge what we know works in mainstream media.
Jeffrey Brown: On the business side, Sirius' Kelly Hurley also sees new opportunities.
KELLI HURLEY: We're going to see content creators move beyond audio and become true influencers.
That could mean any form of social media.
That could mean YouTube content or video content.
Sometimes that means live events and tours.
Jeffrey Brown: On Air Fest founder Scott Newman believes the future is still being written.
Scott Newman: The people here will decide what the future looks like through their actions, their investments, and their creative work.
Jeffrey Brown: Regarding musician Norah Jones.
Norah Jones: So I'm not going to quit my day job.
It's more of a labor of love, fun and just plain fun.
JEFFREY BROWN: I'm Jeffrey Brown with PBS NewsHour at On Air Fest in Brooklyn, New York.
